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• 10/16/2013

Goggy's Question(s) 03: The fall of man.

Was it inevitable?

Did God foresee it?

Could he have prevented it? And if so, why didn't he?

What is "free will" and did Adam and Eve have it? Why did/didn't they have it?

Did God directly put humans in an enviroment where the possibility of sin existed? And why did/didn't He? I want to know what you all think. Whats your opinion on it?

God bless all,

~Goggles99

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LEGOSuperDKong
Drew1200
Obi the LEGO Fan
Gordax
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Ihaveawiixboxds
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• 10/23/2013
Gordax wrote:
Legoboyvdlp wrote:
Gordax wrote:
By the way, works of art aren't sentient, and if you destroy them they aren't sent to burn in the curellest, evillest place of torture the idea of which has ever been imagined. Whether God likes it or not, he's actively condemning billions of people to such a place for all of eternity. Keep in mind that God created hell. Although he loves us, he WANTS us to suffer there. TS

How do you see that?

Give me a place where the Bible says so and I will believe it.

I will not give you any place in the Bible that says so, simply because of your statement—"Give me a place where the Bible says so and I will believe it."


1. Something to read: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/can-a-loving-god-send-people-to-hell-the-craig-bradley-debate


2. Also:

GOD DOES NOT WANT YOU TO GO TO HELL

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



A. God Gave His Son (pictured in Abraham and Issac at Moriah)

B. God Gave His Spirit (He comes to make the soul uneasy about sin and judgment ahead)

C. God Gave His Word

It is an instrument of conviction. It is sharper than any two-edged sword.

All of this to keep sinners out of a place called hell.

If he had wanted you to go, he would have not send His Son, His Spirit, and His Word.

JESUS DOES NOT WANT YOU TO GO TO HELL:

Heb 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

A. His death on the cross proves it.

(Father remove this cup..nevertheless not mine will but thine..)

B. His love for sinners proves it.

Jn. 15:13 says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

C. His suffering proves this.

1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

HE SUFFERED PAIN, HUMILIATION, BEING FORSAKEN BY THOSE HE LOVED, THE CUP OF SIN, BUT YET HE DRANK SIN’S CUP FOR US, OR IN OUR PLACE.

HELL WAS NOT PREPARED FOR YOU-

It was prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matt.25:41)

There is no hope for a "fallen angel" but there is for "fallen man." Man can be redeemed from his fall. That is an impossibility for an angelic being.


And neither people in hell (Luke 16:27-31) nor people in heaven (Luke 15:10) want you to go there.

Man deserves to be cast into hell, so that divine justice never stands in the way. The sword of divine justice is every moment brandished over their heads, and it is nothing but the hand of arbitrary mercy, and God’s mere will, that holds it back.

They are already under a sentence of condemnation to hell. The one who does not believe is condemned already, simply because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Every unconverted person rightly goes to hell.

They are now object of that same anger and wrath of God that is expressed in the torments of hell. The wrath of God burns against them; their damnation does not slumber. The pit is prepared, the fire is made ready, the furnace is now hot, ready to receive them, the flames do now rage and glow. The glittering sword is whet, and held over them, the pit hath opened its mouth under them.

The devil stands ready to fall upon them, and seize them as his very own, at whatever moment God may permit him. The lost belong to the devil, he has their soul in his possession, and under his dominion. The old serpent is gaping for them, hell opens its mouth wide to receive them, and if God should permit it, they would be hastily swallowed up and lost.

God is under no obligation by any promise to keep a lost man out of hell one moment. Deliverance from hell comes through the indwelling of the Lord Jesus Christ in the heart of a man.

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• 10/23/2013
Okay. So why did God create me when he knew that I would eventually go to hell?
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• 10/23/2013
Gordax wrote:
Okay. So why did God create me when he knew that I would eventually go to hell?


You can choose whether you go to hell or not by believing in Him.

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• 10/23/2013

He also created us to give Him glory, and praise Him as it says here: Revelation 4:11 “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

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• 10/23/2013
Legoboyvdlp wrote:
Gordax wrote:
Okay. So why did God create me when he knew that I would eventually go to hell?

You can choose whether you go to hell or not by believing in Him.

But God knew before he created me which choice I would make. In fact, he would have had to design me to make that choice. God has a plan for everyone, they say. God's plan obviously didn't include me going to heaven, otherwise it would fail. And since God's plans can't fail, he must have intended for me to go to hell. God can see the future, or at least perfectly predict it, so it is indisputable that before he brought my soul into existence he knew that it was utterly doomed. Therefore he must have created it to be utterly doomed.

@Zax, really the only thing humanity gave God was sadness. Before he created man, God was perfectly happy, and he needed nothing, and he shouldn't have wanted anything. Yet he created man, a totally useless species in his eyes, and he knew that it would do nothing for him. Man can't help God, man can't give God the honor that is due to him, and man was doomed from the very beginning. This goes back to the fact that when God was thinking about making humans, he knew that if he created them like this and not like that, they would fail. He created them anyway, and the rest is supposedly history.

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• 10/23/2013

Gordax wrote: Okay. So why did God create me when he knew that I would eventually go to hell?

Because God created people regardless of how they would choose. Can you prove that that is unfair without using your own opinion or appealing to emotions?

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• 10/23/2013
Obi the LEGO Fan wrote:

Gordax wrote: Okay. So why did God create me when he knew that I would eventually go to hell?

Because God created people regardless of how they would choose. Can you prove that that is unfair without using your own opinion or appealing to emotions?

Since a conception of fairness is relative to a given person or group of persons I can't sensibly attempt to appeal to some objective idea of fairness. There is no objective fairness, and there is no objective morality other than the natural behaviors brought about by evolution. And you know, I can technically just send that "appealing to emotions" stuff right back at you. TS I could ask you something like, "Can you prove that God's laws are the only, perfect laws without appealing to God, your emotions, or your opinion?" seeing as that takes away any bases you have for so confidently proclaiming that God's laws are perfect. And there's truth in that: if God's laws are so obviously right, how come many aren't apparent?

God didn't create people regardless of how each person would choose. God created people AND how each person would choose. God decides precisely how each person will choose. He orchestrates it, more specifically. In essence, what you're saying is that God just doesn't care where we go. Regardless of what you may have intended to say, that's exactly what you did say.

So please prove to me, without appealing to God or the laws he set, how it's perfectly just to create someone who you know will eventually burn in hell. Right now you hold the burden of proof; I don't, seeing as no man can objectively prove that his morals are the only correct ones.

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• 10/23/2013

Gordax wrote:

Obi the LEGO Fan wrote:

Gordax wrote: Okay. So why did God create me when he knew that I would eventually go to hell?

Because God created people regardless of how they would choose. Can you prove that that is unfair without using your own opinion or appealing to emotions?

Since a conception of fairness is relative to a given person or group of persons I can't sensibly attempt to appeal to some objective idea of fairness. There is no objective fairness, and there is no objective morality other than the natural behaviors brought about by evolution. And you know, I can technically just send that "appealing to emotions" stuff right back at you. TS I could ask you something like, "Can you prove that God's laws are the only, perfect laws without appealing to God, your emotions, or your opinion?" seeing as that takes away any bases you have for so confidently proclaiming that God's laws are perfect. And there's truth in that: if God's laws are so obviously right, how come many aren't apparent?

God didn't create people regardless of how each person would choose. God created people AND how each person would choose. God decides precisely how each person will choose. He orchestrates it, more specifically. In essence, what you're saying is that God just doesn't care where we go. Regardless of what you may have intended to say, that's exactly what you did say.

So please prove to me, without appealing to God or the laws he set, how it's perfectly just to create someone who you know will eventually burn in hell. Right now you hold the burden of proof; I don't, seeing as no man can objectively prove that his morals are the only correct ones.

Ah, so you have come out now as a full moral relativist - although I already guessed you were. So there is no objective morality, which makes it impossible to impugn the moral character of God. God is not a member of our culture, or whichever group you want to use, so He cannot be measured by your concepts of fairness. You essentially undermine and destroy your argument against the existence, or morality, of God. Clearly, God's morals are different than yours, and God is perfectly justified in having His own set of morals, whatever they may be. That is the ultimate irony of relativists attacking God as immoral - they are being inconsistent with their own worldview.

No, you cannot throw it right back at me, as you nicely demonstrated. You had to add "God" into the equation, which entirely changed the meaning of the request. It is quite specious to call the two requests tantamount. Without God, there is no objective standard for morality, as you seem to agree. God is not the same as "opinion or emotion", as you subtly suggest. Ultimately, I cannot prove any moral proposition to be right or wrong without reference to God. I can demonstrate the superiority of certain moral commands empirically, but it will ultimately regress to the highest standard. Without a standard, it is all opinion, as you have demonstrated - which again, makes your criticism of God highly ironic.

The action of choice is not something that is created per se; it is not a physical object, entity, being, or creature. The action of choice is an effect of certain variables. It is facile to propose that God simply "created" the choice. Also, God most definitely does not decide precisely how each individual will choose. That is the whole point of free will; that they make the decisions themselves. You may believe that free will is not compatible with Christian doctrine, but I am of a different opinion, and it is that opinion which I defend.

I decline to comply with your request, as you decline to comply with mine. That is because I cannot prove something to be just without referring to the standard of justice. Without God and His law there is no justice, so it is merely nonsensical to attempt any such endeavor. Also, don't start talking about the "burden of proof". This isn't an official debate, and it is utterly irrelevant. Notwithstanding, your rationale for putting the burden of proof on me does not logically follow.

1
• 10/24/2013

I totally missed most of this thread, so I'm just going to post my answer to Gog's question.

The question of free will's probably the toughest one I've ever asked myself. I do believe that free will is real, but I also believe that God is sovereign, and that He can and does ordain certain things. I don't believe free will is anything like libertarian free will, but I do believe that it exists somehow. When God created us in his image, I do believe that one of the communicable attributes he gave to us was free will. But I also believe God is sovereign. So is this just a Due. 29:29, or is there really a way to be able to comprehend it? I'm not sure.

Like I said above, I believe God is sovereign, and that he could have prevented it. This is completely the opposite of libertarian free will. People who believe that believe God could not have prevented it, because free will is not restricted by fate or anything. I do believe God could have prevented it, but I believe he chose not to. Contrary to many of the posts here, I do have a reason why God chose not to prevent it: for his own glory. That is why God created the universe after all, and his act of defeating sin is the single event throughout all of history that will and has brought him the most glory. I believe that's why God has allowed the universe to go down this route, and why sin was permitted to enter into this world. If it had not, God would not be given nearly as much glory as he would have if everyone was perfect.

Hopefully that'll make sense to everyone. Smile.png

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• 10/25/2013
Gordax wrote:
Obi the LEGO Fan wrote:

Gordax wrote: Okay. So why did God create me when he knew that I would eventually go to hell?

Because God created people regardless of how they would choose. Can you prove that that is unfair without using your own opinion or appealing to emotions?
Since a conception of fairness is relative to a given person or group of persons I can't sensibly attempt to appeal to some objective idea of fairness. There is no objective fairness, and there is no objective morality other than the natural behaviors brought about by evolution. And you know, I can technically just send that "appealing to emotions" stuff right back at you. TS I could ask you something like, "Can you prove that God's laws are the only, perfect laws without appealing to God, your emotions, or your opinion?" seeing as that takes away any bases you have for so confidently proclaiming that God's laws are perfect. And there's truth in that: if God's laws are so obviously right, how come many aren't apparent?

God didn't create people regardless of how each person would choose. God created people AND how each person would choose. God decides precisely how each person will choose. He orchestrates it, more specifically. In essence, what you're saying is that God just doesn't care where we go. Regardless of what you may have intended to say, that's exactly what you did say.

So please prove to me, without appealing to God or the laws he set, how it's perfectly just to create someone who you know will eventually burn in hell. Right now you hold the burden of proof; I don't, seeing as no man can objectively prove that his morals are the only correct ones.

It is sad how evolutionists have absolutely no ground for moral behavior. What makes rape and murder wrong? The animals do it. We just call it by different names.

We are currently the greatest creatures on earth in terms of intelligence. Yet we have turned from our evolutionary heritage. Civilization as we know it is the opposite of the advancement of Darwin's theory. Shouldn't we be fighting to be the best? Shouldn't only the  worthiest genetics be passed down, so that our species can continue to be the greatest species known, throughout the ages? But we evolved consciences, and morals. Nature cannot have intended that we, the greatest beings, would become all soft. If we follow these "morals" we will become weak.

Also, since no one has correct morals, and all can only go by their own set of morals, shouldn't you at least be fair to God and judge Him by His own morals instead of yours? 

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